I interviewed Dr Rhiannon McAleer about the Bible Society’s report ‘A Quiet Revival’. We started by looking at the headlines from the report, then I pressed her about questions of methodology and whether the findings are robust, before we explored some of the encouragements and challenges arising for the church and church leaders. You can find a full transcript below the video.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Bible Society, church attendance, young Christians, life satisfaction, spiritual openness, survey methodology, cultural shift, church growth, discipleship, Bible engagement, community connection, Pentecostalism, Church of England, generational trends, faith exploration.
Ian
Friends, thank you very much for joining us. I’m doing something slightly different today, I’m having a conversation with Dr Rhiannon McAleer from the Bible Society. Rhiannon, very good to see you. Thank you for joining us.
Rhiannon
Oh, good to see you, too. Thank you so much for having me.
Ian
Now, Rhiannon, the reason for talking to you is that you’ve been responsible as the lead researcher on this report from The Bible Society, which has come out recently called A Quiet Revival, and it’s caused quite a stir, hasn’t it?
Rhiannon
It has. Yeah, it’s definitely got people talking.
Ian
Can you give us a few of the headlines? I know a lot of people watching this will already have seen it, but can you just give us some of the well, quite exciting, quite encouraging headlines from your survey?
Rhiannon
Yeah, absolutely. Maybe before we start, some background: Bible Society has been undertaking large survey work with YouGov for a number of years now. We started back in 2018 with a really large survey of 19,000 adults in England and Wales. That’s a representative sample. It’s how the population looks. And because it’s on that kind of scale, it’s really robust. It’s considered to be very representative. We’ve been polling in various ways in between those years for different reasons, but we felt that we needed to do a big update of that 2018 survey. All the change, pandemic, all of these kind of things. So in 2024 towards the end of the year, which was the same time we pulled the 2018 survey, we surveyed 13,000 people. So again, a massive sample that is much bigger than a typical survey would be, which would be between 1 and 3 thousand people.
And we found some really, really remarkable things. It was surprising. I think that’s fair to say. You know, we did a lot of back and forth with YouGov to make sure that nothing really suspicious had happened, but we found three kind of really key and exciting things.
So the first one was that we saw a rise in the number of adults saying they go to church regularly. That came on from 8% of the population in 2018 to 12% now that, in itself, is great, but the thing that really, really interested us was that the growth seems to be among young people, so particularly those under 80 under 35 where we saw a growth from 4% in 2018 to 16% in 2024 so 16% of 18 to 24 year olds telling us that they go to church on a regular basis and that they identify as Christian. That’s really important. You call these churchgoing Christians.
We also asked a bunch of questions about life satisfaction, so how hopeful you are about the future, when your life feels meaningful, and when you get close to people, you look at area these these kind of questions. We took them from other surveys that ask these kind of questions as well, and what we found was that there is a really clear pattern that churchgoers seem to have better life satisfaction than non churchgoers across multiple of these statements. And that was really interesting. I don’t know if that’s as surprising. Many Christians have commented that, yeah, of course, that’s great, but it’s really good to see it so clearly in the stats, and this is particularly the case for young Christians as well. And so basically, you can sign up as church going is good for you, and it’s good for communities, churchgoers, and more likely, than non-churchgoers to donate to donate to charity, to volunteer their time, donate to a few banks. So church churches make a difference, and that’s really cool.
But we also saw real spiritual openness and curiosity among the population. We had noted that in 2018, but the big change for 2024 was that, again, non church goers aged under 35 were showing real openness. So younger adults are more likely than average, to say its a positive thing for Christians to talk about their faith with non-Christians. They’re the age group most likely to say they’re interested in learning more about the Bible. They’re the age group most likely to say they pray regularly and have openness to spiritual practice. Now that could be anything that’s not necessarily Christianity, but it does seem that there has been a kind of cultural shift, both reflected within the church and beyond, that Christianity has a place and that people are willing to explore it. So yeah, it’s exciting and surprising.
Ian
That’s really fascinating. Thank you. I’m interested that you were surprised by this as well, so it wasn’t as though you were sort of seeking these things out, but actually, these things emerge from the statistics, as it were, from the data.
Now, there has been a sort of pushback, and you’ve emphasized how good the methodology was in terms of sample size and representativeness and all that kind of thing. And of course, we’d expect an organization like YouGov to be really good on that. And the comment I’ve heard most commonly, sort of the question about the method, is the fact that you’re asking people to self report. Do you think that makes the survey vulnerable to bias, simply because people don’t always say what they do and the two things don’t always match up?
Rhiannon
Yeah, I don’t know if I would say this vulnerable to bias. I would say it’s a really fair factor to bear mind when you’re looking at survey data. Surveys are excellent at helping us understand attitudes, and the main purpose of this survey is to understand people’s attitudes to the Bible and Christianity. When it comes to behaviour, we are reliant on what people tell us. It is known, particularly in the US, I’m not so sure over here, but it is possible that people kind of uplift how often they go to church because they think they should. I would say I don’t find that problematic within our survey in the sense that if that is an effect, it is happening every time we survey. So you kind of accept that sort of effect, but that effect will always be in every survey weight, so that change that we’re observing is still valid.
Now I also think it’s particularly interesting to ask on self reporting. You can assume that people are overstating their attendance. What we see in our data is most of attendance is in weekly. It seems really unlikely to me, but others may feel differently, but there are those people who never go to church but saying they go weekly—I’m just I’m questioning why. Now, are there people who go monthly or less, but feel they should go weekly and saying they go weekly? Sure, but again, they’ll be doing that kind of consistently. So the question that I would want to ask is, what changed between 2018 and 2024 to make that effect greater?
Now, the other benefit of asking people how often they practice and relying on them to tell you is that you kind of have a sense that there may be things happening outside of what official statistics can pick up. So online church is one possibility that’s being put forward. Aspiration like, okay, I don’t go weekly, but I would if I could so I’m going to write on this survey that I do. I think that’s a really powerful indicator that Christianity still has a place, that church really is still a desirable thing and matters. So is this survey a perfect mirror to the world? Absolutely not. But when taking on its own terms, it shows us big trends that we should still be really encouraged by. But all methods have have their limitations, and I am very confident in a trend that these two massive data sets are showing us. I certainly don’t believe that YouGov who are the most historically cold polling company when it comes to religion, and one of the most reliable could produce two such massive surveys that were totally off reality. They’re pointing us to something important going on.
Ian
Well, I think it’s really interesting point you make that. I mean, as you say, one of these issues is you’re not necessarily claiming that this is giving an absolute measure, but as you’ve said several times, is a comparative measure. So you’re seeing change from 2018 which is significant. I think it’s also fair to say, especially within the youth culture, it’s not exactly trendy to be a Christian. I wouldn’t say that the narrative we’re seeing in a wider culture, I would say it’s still fairly antipathetic to Christian faith and many, many levels. So as you say, there isn’t, there wouldn’t be a kind of, especially young people, a kind of social pressure, who say, Oh, I’m going to church, as if that’s a social virtue. I also wonder whether there are some but there’s any other sort of data information around about the place, which might also correlate with the changes that you’ve been seeing in terms of other survey information other factors in culture.
Rhiannon
Oh, yeah, absolutely, there’s clearly a bit of a shift going on with Gen Z. I was, I think, so far as the only one to point towards people saying that they go to church more, we are doing it at a scale that very few others are. So it might be that it’s there, but people can’t report it because of margins of error, but we’ve seen a massive uptick in other data sets on the number of young adults saying they believe in God, and that’s come out in multiple places. What we see in our data also is this well being and kind of life satisfaction stuff coming through. We think that’s really significant. We can see with young people across multiple measures, that life is hard for them, that the world that they’re inheriting is difficult, and I think there is a bit of a sense that, you know, they’re searching for meaning, they’re searching for answers. They’re searching for healing, particularly young men, which come through very strongly in our data, again, perhaps surprisingly strong.
But is it a surprise to me that they would be finding that in church, or, you know, religion? I mean, absolutely not. I think we would expect that. So yeah, our data is not anomalous by any means, and it’s very much as part of a trend in data that there is clearly a shift going on, and that that shift is focused among the young at the moment. Now, we say in the report, we don’t know how long this is going to last for. It could be a bubble. It is a survey. Is only ever a moment in time, but it’s a really interesting moment in time, and it’s so great to see the church kind of discussing, you know, what does this mean for us?
Ian
Another data point, I think, which was reported a couple of weeks ago was about young people’s interest in buying and reading the Bible.
Rhiannon
Yeah, absolutely. Some, some really good data there. And again, our own data is showing that, you know, young people at something like 37% of 18 to 24 are interested in learning more about the Bible, which just outstrips any other age group, which is amazing, certainly not what we were seeing in 2018 and that when you take the churchgoers out of that and you only look at non young, non churchgoers, their interest is still the highest of any other non church going age groups. So yeah, real curiosity there.
And I think one of the things that we’ve been hearing as Bible Society prior to doing the survey, was that we were hearing a lot on the ground about church leaders saying, I am getting a lot of curiosity from young people, even some people saying, I’ve got young people coming in. They feel quite formed, you know, they’ve clearly been looking up stuff online. I’ve been hearing that for a while. I was a bit like, oh, okay, show me the data. And then it’s come through. So, you know, researchers, people, you know, even people like me, we wouldn’t have a data point. I would have loved to be able to rerun the survey just to see what happens on the next run. Unfortunately, we have the data we have. But you know, it didn’t feel bizarre to us that the survey was pointing to something that other people are experiencing.
And obviously, since the surveys come out, we’ve had a lot of people saying, that’s not going on in my church. We’ve had many, many saying that absolutely is going on in my church. We called it a quiet revival, because it’s even at the numbers that we’re reporting, this is not a flood. You know, you would not be necessarily noticing an outpouring on the streets. This could be, you know, five new people over a few years coming, coming through the threshold. That’s not, you know, obviously accounting for the idea that there are people exploring faith in other ways. Back to what we talked about earlier, the way we interpret ‘church service’, we’re not in control of that. We do our best to tighten it in the survey. We make it very clearl we mean a Christian church, all of these kind of things. But it could be, you know, that growth is happening in kind of unexpected places. Universities, is one of them. I don’t know about cathedrals, home churches, online churches, all of this stuff.
Ian
That’s fascinating, because one of the things that I often do, I talk to people about church growth and about the New Testament vision of mission, is I say to them, you know, the most explosive growth in history of the Church, which is in the early centuries—how fast did the church blow and people something Oh, 10 or 20% No. Rodney Stark did a sociological analysis of the numbers, and he pointed out that that over a couple of 100 years, the average church growth was 3.54% a year. That was the most radical world shaping growth. As you say, it’s quiet. The question is, as you say, is it going to continue? So that’s fine. If he does it for 10 years, you’re going to be double in size. You know over that period. It is about sustaining it.
Rhiannon
Exactly. And you know, we pretty much believe that our figures are pointing to a truth, and that that is that there’s interest among young people. I’m not sure how people get pass the first chapter but at the end of the report we point out there is discipleship need. These young Christians that we see are showing tremendous enthusiasm, interest in the Bible and high faith confidence, but there are some warning signs as well. You know, the among churches, younger churches are more likely to say that they struggle to find people to learn from. They struggle to find appropriate resources around the Bible. So if we’re kind of looking at sustainable growth, we do need to be putting in kind of the work now is, I would say it’s not a done deal, and it kind of could not only claim to continue to grow, but it could kind of reverse. That would be a possibility. So, you know, we we see kind of clear indications and data from really positive story, but not a complacent story by any means. But there was real opportunity, I think I would say.
Ian
Now this is a moment to mention The Bible Society themselves who are producing some pretty good resources on this, including the Bible course.
Rhiannon
Thank you so much. The new edition of Bible course is set to launch in the next few weeks. My other role is impact measurements, so my team look at the effectiveness of our resources. The Bible course we’ve done a lot of work on, and it shows real evidence of change from what we call Bible confidence. So people’s confidence to navigate the Bible, to see how it all fits together, to help themselves identify their role in the story of Scripture. The new one is great. It’s been updated, new resources, new videos. It’s great for new Christians, and it’s great for lifelong Christians as well. Everyone seems to get something positive out of it.
Ian
The other great resource is the Bible Project on YouTube; it is interesting that you talk about the signs of interest and signs of hunger, as well as resourcing. And I think the Bible Project is also a sign of that in that it’s popularity has taken off massively in the last couple of years, I think, and now Bible project is doing some collaborations with organizations in UK as well. But also it’s about thinking about that hunger on the fringes. I was just on holiday and travelled with a group of folk, and had with four different people conversations about their interest in the Bible. I said, look, look at the Bible Project resources here and they said they would look at them. This is a really fascinating way into the message of the Christian faith.
Rhiannon
Yeah, absolutely. We have to be honest; in our surveys the vast majority of people are not interested in that Bible. But when we do see an openness to explore again, I would say that a wider research shows that people who aren’t familiar with the Bible can get a lot out of it. And I think sometimes we fear that you can’t put scripture in front of people, but we have to be prepared that what comes out might be challenging. And you know, it is going to raise questions, I think the key thing is we don’t have to have all the answers, and we have to be brave enough to not have all the answers as well. The thing that we know puts non Christians off reading the Bible than anything is a fear that like Christian are going to tell them they’re wrong or preach at them, or something, that can be open to exploring the Bible on its on their terms.
Ian
Now, this survey, and the responses, it’s been unusual for you because you didn’t join the Bible Society in order to become a media star! And this has put the spotlight on you. Some reactions have been, actually been quite sort of cautious, almost negative to it as well has that taken you by surprise?
Rhiannon
We’re delighted with the response then we are really delighted with the amount of conversation that’s going on. I’m in no way surprised; in my role I have to be a skeptic as well. And if I was in another role I would probably be like, right, let’s dissect this thing and see how it comes up. As researchers, we welcome that, and we wanted to put it out there in the world. We didn’t know if others perhaps have similar data, and perhaps were sitting on it because they’re not sure about it. You kind of have to put it out there and see what comes back.
But also, because it is the data we have, we believe it to be robust, and we believe it to be pointing to something of truth in the world. So yeah, it’s been, it’s kind of been it’s kind of been really wonderful in a way, as we were wrestling with the data. It surprised us when it came in. And like I said earlier, I wrestled back with YouGov. We did go through it quite a bit, but to kind of almost have crowdsource responses to it is really cool. So I’m walking with loads more ideas for what to what to do next. And sort of thank everyone for approaching it with a willingness to discuss it, and it’s for the most part been really friendly conversation as well. So yeah, that’s that’s been great.
Ian
Just going back to the shaping of things, you’ve talked about interesting things about the shift to a greater interest in the church and so much men and women, which is fascinating. You have also mentioned the diversity of those who are interested in going to church more often. There’s also—I know this is a bit of a cautious issue for Bible Society—there’s also a shift from inherited congregations and traditions to new churches, because, of course, many of our historic denominations are in decline. So there does seem to be a shift towards new churches, I think, as well. But also, there’s been comments about ‘full fat faith’, and you’ve hinted about this too, that people are drawn to faith where there’s a radical challenge, and there’s a stepping away from some values of our culture. What insights did you get from the survey in those sort of areas?
Rhiannon
Yeah, I think this is one of those areas where I would want to dig in with some really good interviews with people to understand what’s going on. One of the interesting things, things we see the data is what looks to be quite significant increase in Catholicism. And we had also been hearing—it’s not showing up in our data because our survey, because it is not big enough. But we’ve heard a lot about interest in the Orthodox Church from young people, particularly young men. And I know that others have done more work on that. So that’s quite interesting.
Ian
It is interesting because quite often we’re told that we have to sort of reduce the cultural distance but these are traditions where there is no attempt at all to reduce the cultural difference, you know, being in church is quite a distinct culture from what people are used to.
Rhiannon
It is, and what we see in our data is kind of community matters, so a sense of being part of something I wonder around that if there’s an interest in looking for authenticity. But one thing we’ve been wondering is there’s something about a search for experience, because in our data, we’ve got this kind of Catholicism streak, and we’ve got this Pentecostal streak, and both of them are quite sensory. I would say we’re interested in the idea of confidence, being head, heart and hands. And I wonder if there’s a similarity with with faith, that there are those, and I have to say that our data is not going to be the final word on this, but faith traditions that are experiential, I think perhaps might be what I would lean into. When it came down to individual churches, I think it’s going to be those that feel really welcoming, have space for questions, you know, connection. I think this is the young men on data, particularly, show something around feeling close to people. So churches that feel connected I think we’ll probably be doing better. But this is definitely one of those issues where more research needed on this kind of thing. So we can’t speak to future growth and future trends.
Ian
Just coming back to the reliability of the result that also correlate with the fact that the headlines have always been, you know, church and terminal decline kind of thing. And when I’m when I’m doing things in the media, I often say, the historical denominations are the ones with the collecting the statistics, the ones that are often in decline, and actually, you mentioned Pentecostalism—I don’t think any Pentecostal churches actually, they don’t know how many churches they’ve got let alone how many people attend. That would correlate with the idea that things are happening on the ground, which some of the headline statistics don’t actually always point to.
Rhiannon
Sure, and you know, statistics, they give a picture. The granular is found in other places. And what I would kind of say is that we have another survey with different polling agencies just looking at Christians, because our sense in our wider workers, denominational labels are not necessarily as meaningful to particularly young Christians as we might imagine. I don’t think that’s necessarily the case with Catholics and Orthodox, if I put them to one side, but our data kind of shows that the Church of England is reasonable steady, if not maybe a little bit bigger than the church’s own stats suggest it should be. It would not surprise me if people are ticking the Church of England box and not going to a Church of England church. They’re not sure on the difference, particularly perhaps younger people who might not have that kind of religious interest.
I do know many people in my personal life, who don’t go to a Church of England church, but grew up in that. The question of the survey is not what church, what denomination of church do you go to? But what denomination do you identify with? And it might well be that people are ticking that. I don’t know whether that’s good or bad news for the Church of England, but I just say that it is reasonably difficult to track, especially when you’re getting into surveys. We have things like new churches, evangelical churches, all of that listed. I don’t think people easily identify into those things. Denominational labels are just quite loose for most Christians, and we do want to do further work to tighten that up again.
Ian
Well, it’s been really fascinating to talk to you. Just to finish with, could you pull out for me the things from the survey that are the key encouragements for Christians and for church leaders to take away. And what you think the key challenges are?
Rhiannon
Yeah, absolutely. Firstly, I think we are entering a period of change and that inevitable decline as a church. I think we can start to really question that and challenge it. I think we can be encouraged.
We know from wider research that churches that grow are churches that plan to grow. There is an openness in the population, particularly younger people, who are probably approaching the Bible and Christianity with perhaps less cultural baggage than previous generations, who are open to learning more and find meaning.
And I would say that churches should be encouraged by the good work that they’re doing. And church communities, in our data, seem to be doing well, making a difference in individual lives, and to their communities. So, you know, there is change in the air, and to be encouraged and to make the most of the opportunity for that.
In terms of the challenge is the challenge, it is about seizing the moment, right? Like this is, as I said, a moment in time. I think it’s an exciting moment, but it’s got to be grasped. It’s got to be acted on. And the Bible has to be at the centre of that for churches. So yeah, if you are experiencing these young people exploring or indeed older adults who do that in the data, to start up these conversations and be prepared for difficult questions. You don’t need to have all the answers, but yeah, plan for discipleship, I would say.
Ian
I love that comment you made there, that churches that grow, are churches that plan to grow, churches that make disciples are churches that plan to make disciples around engagement with scripture.
Friends, thank you very much for joining us. Great to see you, Dr Rhiannon McAleer. Thank you for joining us, and we continue to pray for and encourage you in your work.
I would love to believe that this survey reflects what is actually happening on the ground, but the data it reports would translate into roughly 2m people going to a Church of England church at least once a month. That is more than double what is currently reported. So there’s a significant glitch there. On the other hand, the news of a surge in baptisms in the RC church in France mirrors what the survey reports, so I’m really not sure which bits of the report need pinches of salt, and how big a pinch.
Thanks David. I am not sure that the discrepancy is quite as you say.
The C of E reported 700k weekly church attendance. If people are going, on average, every other week, then that is 1.4m. If people attend less often, then that is going to be near the 2m mark.
But there is a key part of the conversation where Rhiannon notes people are not denominationally aware, and might say ‘C of E’ when in fact they attend elsewhere. I can see that kind of fluidity where I am.
So I don’t think the difference is that great.
But, as we explored, the key findings of the survey are not about the absolute numbers, but about the change. And that change is mostly happening in evangelical churches, and in Pentecostal/charismatic, and Catholic Churches. It is by-passing middle of the road and liberal C of E Churches.
Yet even by standing still the C of E remains the largest denomination in England. Pentecostals are growing with the young and Catholic churches steady with all ages but helped by Eastern European immigrant growth especially.
There has also been some growth in high church C of E churches like St Bart’s not just evangelical C of E churches, cathedrals also see growing attendance
https://ccx.org.uk/content/church-is-growing-church-of-england/
Ian,
Your proposed reconciliation of the Bible Society figures and the CoE (and Catholic!) attendance figures, which are nearly a factor of three lower, is that people go only one week in three. But we are talking about people who seem to be enthusiastic Christians. I find this unlikely, and I have a more pessimistic explanation. The Bible Society commissioned this survey from YouGov, who contacted online a panel they have built up over time which comprises a representative cross-section of the population. In the survey we read details of the responses – whether churchgoer or not; if so, what denomination. But I fail to find figures stating how many people were contacted and failed to respond. I believe that churchgoers are considerably more likely to respond to such questions. It seems that in this respect the sample was self-selecting – a well-known source of bias.
I am in email contact with Rhiannon and I intend to ask her about this. I do accept that the identical methodology in 2018 and 2024 shows the increase claimed, and that this is good news.
The figures would still be reflected in the ‘worshipping community’ stat, which isn’t average Sunday attendance, but does cover everyone who is a ‘regular’ at the church. In the most recent full stats (for 2023, released at the end of 2024) that was just over 1m. So the survey would still imply double the reported numbers.
I don’t think that is how the WC stat works…?
What I find notable is interest in the Bible. And this is from someone who was given Gideons NT and Psalms at a State junior school, but took no interest in it until found in a drawer in midult life. At neither stage was I, nor were my family, church goers.
The transcript also brings to mind a podcast with Glenn Scrivener, Rebecca McClaughlin and Andrew Wilson, where some point in conclusion were that new people of younger generation who were coming to church, were looking for meaning(MC) and praise and worship were integral in fostering interest (Wilson).
As a secular professional module it the death and meaning that we’re catalysts, that stimulated finding long forgotten, ignored, Gideon’s in a drawer, at home and in a hospital bedside table.
We sometimes pray, like the prophet , that God would “tear open the heavens and come down in a show of power to revive the church. We think that conditions are so bad or evil that the
only solution might be a new reformation, a leading light figure, a radical re-alignment,
This survey of a “quiet revolution” is indicative of the “Dew of Heaven” for me.
blessing spoken of in the Scriptures, e.g. (Gen. 27:27-29).
The favor of God is “like dew on the grass” (Prov. 19:12).
Dew is a source of great fertility ( Genesis 27:28 ; Deuteronomy 33:13 ; Zechariah 8:12 ), and its withdrawal is regarded as a curse from God ( 2 Samuel 1:21 ; 1 Kings 17:1 ).
Deuteronomy 32:2-3 New Century Version
My teaching will drop like rain; my words will fall like dew. They will be like showers on the grass; they will pour down like rain on young plants. I will announce the name of the LORD. Praise God because he is great.
Zech.
8:10 For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast; neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction: for I set all men every one against his neighbour.
8:11 But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith the LORD of hosts.
8:12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.
In Greek and Latin poetry dew is often a metaphor for tears. “Thickly fall the tears whose pale dew she sheds,” writes Sophocles (Trachiniae 847–48). Ovid has the phrase “the dew of tears” (Lacrima rum rore)
Ps 126:5 They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. Heaven shall answer the secret lamentations
of the saints with an outpouring of quiet dews of Heaven.
Go Large @ gracegems.org/Smith3/dew_of_heaven.htm
OR
theopolisinstitute.com/the-dew-of-heaven/
The Jewish prayer liturgy at the time of the Passover contains a prayer for the dew of heaven.
For the church in all it’s febrile controvesies and disputations
perhaps we may well pray this prayer that these young shoots
might find a true resting place.
Dear Lord and Father of mankind,
Forgive our foolish ways;
Reclothe us in our rightful mind,
In purer lives Thy service find,
In deeper rev’rence, praise.
O Sabbath rest by Galilee,
O calm of hills above,
Where Jesus knelt to share with Thee
The silence of eternity,
Interpreted by love!
DROP THY STILL DEWS OF QUIETNESS
Till all our strivings cease;
Take from our souls the strain and stress,
And let our ordered lives confess
The beauty of Thy peace.
Breathe through the heats of our desire
Thy coolness and Thy balm;
Let sense be dumb, let flesh retire;
Speak through the earthquake, wind, and fire,
O still, small Voice of calm.
In simple trust like theirs who heard
Beside the Syrian sea
The gracious calling of the Lord,
Let us, like them, without a word,
Rise up and follow Thee.
SHALOM.
There are two divides I see. One between reality/worldview Christianity and conventional/cultural ‘Christianity’. Generally speaking the test is whether people understand that there is a spiritual war or not. So on the one side you have ranged those who agree there’s a spiritual war (more or less what I would call the goodies): Puritans, many Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Catholics, Inklings, exact scholars, some New Churches & FIEC & Independent. On the other hand you have URC, Methodist, cultural Anglican, Quaker, Unitarian, Bahai and so forth.
I would love to think that this corresponds to the graph of growth and life, and it largely does, though not quite. A lot of evangelical-lite – who believe in spiritual warfare but do not talk about it a lot, because (and this is a very good thing) they are positive in what they talk about, are also growing: Vineyard, HTB, some FIEC, some New Churches – and so on.
I always treasure the time I and my wife went round all the 7-8 Westminster churches of a Sunday morning lobbying re Google’s ills, and the differences we encountered. It was like the Little Prince going from planet to planet.
“(more or less what I would call the goodies)”
Ah yes, the goodies and the baddies.
Christopher: your vast generalisations and dualistic understanding of the world, without any sense of nuance, never ceases to confirm that there is nothing scholarly about you or your work, no matter how much you try to convince us otherwise.
The only alternatives to my belief, whcih is that there are sometimes goodies and baddies and sometimes not (a belief in which the two of us are presumably at one), are (a) that in every conceivable circumstance/topic there are, and (b) that in every conceivable circumstance/topic there are not. I expect you do not hold either (a) or (b), which are both fundamentalist positions, and positions not based on investigation either – though if you do, do tell me which – and that you agree with me that there sometimes are and sometimes are not.
At any given moment we may just as well be talking about an instance where there are goodies and baddies as about an instance where there are not.
Christopher: the only position which bears any interrogation is that every human being is a mix of the good and the bad. St Paul was pretty clear on that point. There aren’t goodies and baddies. There are people who sometimes, in a fallen world, get things wrong.
Yes – as is well known – but my topic is quote other. Systems of thought and understanding can lead to life or to despair. That which leads to life says things as they are: life is an adventure with bravery and cowardice, no guarantees, accountability, risk, spiritual combat, and very much at stake. Despair is the destination of the road which preaches that nothing matters very much, we can just be relativist and omnitolerant.
Ahh I see..you start by talking about goodies and baddies and then you actually aren’t really saying what you obviously were saying. Your usual confusion trick.
Yes, because extraordinarily enough 5 words is less precise than when it is unpacked into 15, and when it is unpacked into 25 it is more precise than the 15, and so on. As you already knew.
But I didn’t deny there were goodies and baddies – I affirm it. The world is 8bn people so either all are goodies, or all are baddies, or I am right that there are some of each. It is bad to spread the message that nothing really matters and nothing is at stake – there is nothing eschatologically to win and nothing to lose. Anyone who spreads this already knows better. Which is why they are acting wrongly. Anyone who has a sober regard for how important a matter life is, how important souls and eternal destinies are, and how much is at stake – these are good people. Not everyone is like that. Hence my bifurcation.
“But I didn’t deny there were goodies and baddies – I affirm it. The world is 8bn people so either all are goodies, or all are baddies, or I am right that there are some of each. “
This dualism is nonsense and shows no nuance.
There are not some of each. Everyone of those 8bn people is a mix of the good and the bad, in varying degrees. There is not just good and bad. There is a whole range. And each of us has that range.
As I said, yes in terms of moral performance, which was not the topic. But not in terms of overriding attitude, specifically not in terms of whether they make plain or gloss the fact that life is a dangerous and risky business with high stakes and no guarantees – hence it is imperative to get right with God, which some do and some don’t. Which was my topic.
“hence it is imperative to get right with God, which some do and some don’t.”
Nobody does that. No difference between morals or attitudes. The only way to get right with God is to rely on God’s grace and mercy. The thief at the cross comes to mind.
Those who believe themselves to be right with God – whether in morals or attitudes- are least to be trusted. I’m sure you can find that in the gospels as well.
That’snot right. Some repent and receive God’s free gift, some reject it. It remains a big deal.
Well of course – it’s a free choice. But at different stages in life people make different choices.
But that still doesn’t alter the fact that there is never going to be a simplistic distinction between goodies and baddies. Everyone is a mix of both, in attitude and behaviour. And of course behaviour stems from attitude. You can’t separate those two things.
Exactly. So in the sub-area about which we are talking, anyone who at this time treats life as a high-stakes issue with warnings in order is a goodie.
The subject under discussion is a quiet revival in the Church here in England and Wales. To suggest that such a topic can be simplistically divided into those who are goodies and baddies is quite ridiculous and suggests, as I said in the beginning, that your claim to be a scholar of any kind is extremely suspect.
And from which august academic Chair do you sit above people as one capable of making such a judgment?
The first requirement is to understand their thinking. Generally it takes about 5 comments to do that, which number is a gauge of the level we are talking about.
But having understood their thinking, tat does not put your own thinking at a higher level than theirs.
In the meantime, we trace back to the origins of this, which were (on our topic of growth and where it is occurring) that the growing were obviously the more thoroughly Christian, and the shrinking were the less thoroughly Christian; and my comment that this largely, but not quite, maps onto the division between those who believe much is at stake and those who have not grasped that.
The appointment of Cardinal Sarah as Pope and of some suitably holy/brainy bishop to Canterbury would buck up the resurgence/revival no end. See Clifford Hill, The Reshaping of Britain, for the death-wish that has recently seemed determined to avoid seizing these historical moments. Seize it. Seize it. The only reason not to would be a lack of caring for the present and future generations – i.e. a lethargic sense that nothing really mattered and nothing was at stake. Things matter tremendously, and a tremendous amount is at stake.
In 2003-5 the holiness/brains/stature pattern was evident in the appointment to both sees; in 2013 the mistaken idea that synthesis (between what, exactly?) was somehow intrinsically academically respectable. So, as you were.
“And from which august academic Chair do you sit above people as one capable of making such a judgment?”
Goodness, it doesn’t take much academic ability to understand that talking about goodies and baddies lacks any sign of nuance. My 4 year old granddaughter reads fairy tale books about goodies and baddies. She also understands that in the real world things are a bit more complicated.
Indeed they are. Which is why we are not dividing people up that way tout court (as frequently mentioned) but only on one given attitude. We can now count the number of comments necessary for you to get that point, if indeed you have got it.
The second point to make is that the 3rd rate perspective is that everything is simple or simplistic, the 2nd rate is that everything is complex, and the 1st rate is that things vary between very simple and very complex on a sliding scale. Your last answer was an example of the 2nd rate.
And making crass comments about the Pope on the day he died is really something no scholar would do either. Especially as, connected to this topic, the number of Roman Catholics worldwide has grown under his Papacy.
As for Rowan Williams – he was a classical liberal.
I am always talking of ideas not of people (or of people as bearers of ideas). May this precious man rest in peace.
RW – no, too independent to be put in a box. Everybody of a certain brainpower is independent, since the stereotypes are less intelligent than they themselves are.
From the start, the idea that some had a good attitude and some a bad in this particular matter applied to denominational (etc) groupingsand not to individuals.
“I am always talking of ideas not of people (or of people as bearers of ideas). May this precious man rest in peace.””
Christopher the notion that you can separate the ideas from the person in the case of this precious man is ridiculous. He embodied the ideas and changed the culture of RC Church for the better. Sadly we can’t say the same of his predecessor
Andrew, the evidence is that the RC Church is in a much worse situation now after his time. See https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-extraordinary-scale-of-the-crisis-facing-the-next-pope/
‘His leadership was marked by favouritism and poor judgment.
The next Vicar of Christ will face challenges that dwarf those that confronted any incoming pope in living memory. The Church is mired in doctrinal confusion; its structures of government are fragmented; sexual scandals have been hushed up at the highest level; and it is staring into a financial abyss.
Francis liked to rule by personal decree. He sacked top lieutenants without explanation, and mysteriously promoted others.
Under Francis, secular and canonical laws were bent so often by Vatican power-brokers that, in the words of one insider, ‘this place has turned into the Wild West’.
Francis cannot be entirely blamed for the Vatican’s financial crises or sexual scandals since they are rooted in problems going back at least 60 years. Likewise theological conflicts over women’s ordination and the status of divorced or gay Catholics. But all these worsened under his pontificate. As a result, the answer to the question ‘Does the Catholic Church permit blessings of same-sex couples?’ is the same as the answer to the question of whether divorced-and-remarried people may receive Communion: it depends who you ask. Catholics who obeyed the Church’s teachings and those who challenged them were left baffled. This confusion has undermined the morale of the clergy too.’
…and so on…
Good lord Ian! You seriously trust the judgement of The Spectator over, say, The Tablet? You are even more right wing than I thought.
The numbers of Roman Catholics worldwide has grown under his papacy. A quiet revival.
Of course. And you knew that I knew that. Which is why I was classifying shorthand to divide between those who spread the message that there is nothing at stake and everything will be all right in the end for everyone and those who say we are in an arena of risk and adventure and bravery and there is an enormous amount at stake and things matter intensely and people should be warned to pass the time of their sojourning here in reverent awe and in accountability.
Didn’t the Goodies once do an ecclesiastical rugby tournament?
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2yq9vx
But I didn’t think they were any good. A case of misappropriated identity?
Well, the Baha’is are an offshoot of Islam and operate within an Islamicate framework. All they “know” about Christianity is that Jesus was a prophet whose teachings were for his time and place, and were superseded by the Prophet Muhammad.
November’23 I joined a group going out on the street once a month to talk about Jesus. Those who don’t want to talk just keep moving, those who stop are usually young, mid 20s. Many report that they are Christian. So, I agree; there seems to be change going on. I recommend everyone should go out and try. Practice makes perfect. I feel this is a moment, a small window of opportunity.
“you’ve emphasized how good the methodology was in terms of sample size and representativeness and all that kind of thing. And of course, we’d expect an organization like YouGov to be really good on that.”
Agreed. Amazing then that when Jayne Ozanne undertook some work with YouGov you completely rubbished the results because they didn’t agree with your own bias.
I think that he did not commit the ‘authority fallacy’ of merely naming an organisation and its name being enough (!), but rather highlighted specific methodological concerns or shortcomings (How was the sample obtained? Was it a biased sample? Were the ‘Christians’ regular attenders? For if they were not, their views would be expected to be far closer to those of nonChristians than to those of Christians, as repeatedly shown by Regnerus). There is no other way to discuss surveys.
Christopher,
If it is recalled correctly Ozanne’s was substantially critiqued as being self -selecting, identifying.
‘Those who believe themselves to be right with God – whether in morals or attitudes- are least to be trusted.’
Forgive me for bringing up the subject again, but I suspect many of those like yourself who endorse gay sexual relationships believe precisely that.
Andrew: No, I rubbished that survey because Jayne instructed them NOT to ask about attendance. So she made claims about ‘what Anglicans believe’ which took no account of actually involvement, and was there false.
What can those in leadership positions in General or Diocesan Synods or Churches do to not get in the way of what God is doing (always, in different ways). We seem to be adept at the opposite so the repeating picture from history is the Holy Spirit having to work round those whose lampstand has disappeared.
We work so hard to accommodate to the structures which absorb so much time and energy – should they just be left to themselves and we focus on local churches? These however often have their own constraining structures with leaders who seem content just to keep the show on the road (or don’t have the time, inspiration/vision or energy to do anything else) and probably feel let down by the structures.
Can we devise and promote a flexible model to help all churches better align with what God is doing. There seems to be plenty of money in the ‘Strategic Mission and Ministry Investment Board’ funds – why does each Diocese have to come up with its own plan? HTB have a very strict model for church ’revitalising’ which has its pros and cons, but at least it has energy and vision. I’d make something more generic for churches surviving but not thriving, mostly changes in vision and behaviours. But we really have to pray each church back to life…
Or just put funds back into Parish ministry, which for the C of E at least is its core role
Something must have gone wrong here – I’m agreeing with T1….
Except that putting funds into declining churches does not stop them declining, unless other things are also put in place.
And the SDF/SMMIB money is actually going into parish ministry—with those other things in place.
“why does each Diocese have to come up with its own plan”
I’m a sceptic about “Diocesan plans” in general. The intentions can’t, necessarily, be criticised but the idea that the centre knows what’s best or gets local engagement from plans devised elsewhere… is certainly open “other conclusions “
The (Baptist) Church I attend is growing, as are other nearby evangelical churches of various denominations. Churches of liberal persuasion do not seem to grow….
And much of our growth is people in their 20s-30s, and there has also been a gradual increase of younger children in our ‘Energise/Sunday School group.
Over the years I’ve seen some attempts at noisy revival which have petered out or even ended badly when results sometimes became more important than honesty and integrity – I’m quite happy to see a quiet revival that seems to have some real solidity….
yes – but it would be good to identify the aspects that conribute to health (and healthy churches grow). If you are an Evangelical leader/administrator in the CoE and you have influence and/or resources – what would you do to help unhealthy churces become healthy? I guess Paul in his letters is doing this – so what would be our letter to struggling church?
I have 6 areas from recent experience/study:
* flee the implicit Arianism that is a feature of many liberal (and ‘popular’) churches (who are embarrased by Good Friday)
* application – in sermons – more reference to God’s work in the world. Not just what’s there
but what it’s there-for.
* prayer – for the nation – more focussed prayer for UK institutions/issues eg (https://knowingthetimes.org.uk/blog/praying-nation-items)
* history – more reference to UK Christian history – what God has done here and we look to
Him doing again
* information – more encouragement to learn about how we handle the many vexing issues, at
work, with friends etc (eg on https://knowingthetimes.org.uk and elsewhere)
* practical theology – more organised, topic-based on key themes, a similar role to
stretching ‘catechisms’ – knowing what you believe.
#buildacountryyouwanttolivein
And in Australia?
Jerusalem by City Alight.
https://youtu.be/RcY1-ip1N6s?feature=shared
I hope this is not too late to continue this conversation about. Last year I acted as Chaplain onboard a cruise to Norway. There were 800 passengers onboard. We departed on a Saturday afternoon so no-one knew me, but 100 people turned up for the Sunday morning service. I think that is 12%! There were no ‘young people’ as the cruise catered for the older age range, but what was significant were the church profiles shared in the Chaplain’s corner group on Monday morning. It was multi-denominational and largely encouraging. Very few of the anecdotes shared were ‘dismal stories’.
When I add to that the fact that in 12 years of so called ‘retirement’ ministry (being a ‘licensed odd job man’) I have been to 60 different churches including my local Methodist Circuit and URC church. In almost every case there are new spiritual blades of grass.
Finally; in my duty as a Day Chaplain at my Cathedral, the visitors still come through the doors in good numbers. They are looking for clues.
So it seems to me that the Holy Spirit is indeed driving a quiet revival. It is very much about rekindling old flames and being aware that ‘residual religion’ in a largely non-attending populace can be ignited..
How fascinating!
It would be good if it were true, but Im skeptical. We know from politics that surveys are getting less and less representative of the population and I wonder if that is what is going on here.
Interestingly I had a conversation with an atheist friend who was basically forced to attend a Hillsong style Mega church that the trappings of those types of churches were repulsive to him and that he was more neutral about traditional style worship. I think young people have had enough of being lied to, I know I have.
‘Forced’ by whom?
I agree with you: young people don’t want to be lied to. So what do we then conclude from the evidence that young people are attending churches…?
Peak scepticism (liberal) is in evidence at Easter.
Mandate Thursday 47; Good Friday all age 181. Two morning services on Resurrection day.
Also local independent churches report significant growth, meeting midweek with one joined -up collective worship service every month.
No one is forced.
PJ,
Who is lying and about what, how?
Who is lying to you in this article, post? Please specify. What are the lies?
More specifically what is the Gospel that imbues worship of the Triune God of Christianity, the Way, the Truth, the Life, knowing the scriptures and the power of God.
And we sang the Jerusalem song as part of our Mandate Thursday evening service 47 present, age range 20’s-30’s-70’s. It isn’t a mega church, but is orthodox Anglican, and the musicians and worship was sensitive to the whole service, alongside the lyrics.
PJ please set aside your hostile and generalisd presumptions.
Raised with Him.
Turn to Him in worship and adoration.
I see nothing in the article about sin and repentance. A Christian is a person who has come to understand that he is a sinner and that he falls short of the glory of God. In the crucifixion, he sees Christ bearing the wages of his sin (the wages of sin is death). From this basis, Christian faith is the belief that in the resurrection, he sees that Christ has dealt with his sin so that he bears it no more. This is how Christ showed his love.
I am well aware that there is some sort of revival taking place, but it has many of the hallmarks of a false revival. There are churches that are growing and doing church planting, where they celebrate the love of Christ and emphasise community without making any mention of sin – and hence what Christ’s love for us is all about and how He shows it (i.e. that the crucifixion is necessary).
I wonder whether freeloading is part of the issue.
People will always try to get the most that they can free, so that they can spend more of their money on things that they enjoy.
Thus – more shoplifting, more food banks, more welfare expenditure, more mental health and disability claims.
At a time when this is clearly a trend, as well as being part of human nature, how will the populace react to the fact that church is clearly easily the best free show in town? (This would tally with the fact that the best of the best – cathedrals – have had this increased take up rate for longest, and are the chief beneficiaries now.) Often providing free food, usually free music, usually free social life.
This also at a time when loneliness is at its highest.
Factor it in, but the upsurge in Bible reading and the intrinsic goodness of what is on offer at church show that this is very far from being the whole story.
Even following a TikTok trend is *a* factor. And should we compare the natural flow of fashion, whereby the best things on offer that are not being taken up (e.g. oldfashioned names) are ripe for being the next to be taken up, given that people like freshness and novelty, especially when it is being conveniently served up, and on average so close to where everyone already is?
There are fewer dinnerparties. Fewer nightclubs that are a going concern. Fewer people are taking the trouble to organise large events. The expectation is of more reward for less effort. So an upsurge for the organisations of those who have been in the habit of volunteering for free for ever.
An interesting article by Tim Stanley in the Telegraph today suggests that isolation during the Covid pandemic was the trigger for this increase in interest in the Christian faith. A young Christian I met in a large city recently told me that young white men who would have sneered at Islam a decade ago were now more interested in that faith too. Here is Stanley’s article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/20/one-upside-to-covid-many-rediscovered-christianity/
I ust say that I was greatly cheered when I read this article in November 2020 about illegal services taking place in barns etc:
www dot theguardian dot com/world/2020/nov/22/let-us-disobey-churches-defy-lockdown-with-secret-meetings
Happy Easter everyone!
Fascinating discussion about Christian faith in England on Radio 4 at 9am on Easter Monday. Great insights into the variety of forms of Christianity and why different ones have their place and their appeal. I guess part of the challenge is to recognise the strengths and the value of the forms we may each find less appealing and to work at why they are appropriate for others. Worth a listen. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002b6nb
Did you see the front page of the Guardian? It had a large photo captioned “Easter blessing: crowds welcome recuperating Pope”.
Many of us of a certain age can remember several occasions of
“awakened spiritualities “amongst the young.
One such was the rise of the Hippy spirituality of flower power,
Love Peace Drugs and sex, and the Jesus People counter cultural movement.
That young people at various times explore the “spiritualities on offer is a recuring phenomenon.
Church decline and church growth are trending at the moment among us.
Listening to the radio programme highlighted by Tim https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002b6nb
The B.of Newcastle gave her views on the said subject.
Along with reading other Bs. of the C of E from various “wings” the consensus appears to me
That the church should offer spiritualities that embrace whatever spiritualities people want
{not need].
In most comments on this issue there are various attempts to engender Growth
However, there is no mention of The Holy Spirit and His executor role in the life of the Church
First as Jesus says of Him “John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
On the day of Pentecost ACTS 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
The Holy Spirit “birthed “the church.
Having discarded the Apostles Doctrine, Lost the “mind” of Christ and disregarded the “mind” of the Spirit
[two different functions and expressions of “mind”] the church went /and goes into decline in large parts, before the last of the Apostles had died, or so it seemed.
What seems to be required is “a new [clean]heart and a renewed[right] spirit.
Ergo a new life which is what the Gospel is, a transformation, not a “help on our journey, “or a support for the community”
The community requires a radical “turning upside down” Act 17:6 as does the seeking soul not a “better” form or expression of “spirituality”. LIFE , Abundant Life, Fulness of Life, Riches of Life, Joy and Peace of Life, Eternal Life. Etc, etc.
Shalom.
.
Thanks, Alan. I didn’t suggest that I agreed with everything the contributors said in the BBC 4 programme, only that it was a fascinating discussion. It’s clear that today (as has probably always been the case) different styles/liturgical emphases/ theological positions appeal to different people. That’s only to be expected as there are different emphases within the biblical traditions. So the question is not, which is the sole, absolutely correct and never-changing approach? (as if we can distill an essence of pure Christian faith that applies in every age and in every culture to every person) but how do we discover the presence of Christ together as we are open to the Holy Spirit? (including those with whom we disagree.)
.It might appear that the church and the world is now at a Turning Point .
The death of the Pope, A vacant AB of C, A Trumpian Economic revolution etc.
Tom Austin-Sparks has a book “God’s Method and Means in Times of Special Peril”
A discussion on turning points and how Paul writing his last letter and imminent departure advises
Young Timothy on true piety and church behaviour in a time of turmoil.
I recommend Chapter 2 of the book @ https://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/004923.html
Thanks Anton for the Tim Stanley link, I find him very perceptive.
The thing about the Gospel is it is very simple.
It’s just, Get a Life! and get the Best Life.As jesus said
“I have come that you might have Life and that more abundantly !”.
Another suggestion for the cause is immigration.
Yes. Including for the preponderance of males, Catholics, and Pentecostals.